Avengers Assemble
May. 1st, 2012 05:35 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sub_dividedSuspect Joss Whedon & cowriter made the first half hour of this movie clunky ON PURPOSE so they could create the effect of all hell breaking loose/the pace getting faster and faster in the second half.
This movie is totally about conceptual team-ups and rivalries - Tony Stark’s out of control ego vs. Bruce Banner’s out of control anger! Thor’s unbeatable sword vs. Capt America’s unbreakable shield! Spy (Black Widow) vs. Spy (Hawkeye)! Etc. etc. Even apart from how much I love conceptual team-ups and rivalries, this is a really efficient way to quickly characterize a large cast. I APPROVE.
Under the cut, some (conceptual) spoilers and criticisms:
Like:
Iron Man vs. Capt America, but mainly due to actor chemistry? Although this becomes a thematic thing eventually, the way they immediately single each other out is kind of random, actually. I saw this movie with a friend and she called it an alpha male thing - makes sense as they are the two guys who give the orders on the ground. OTOH, without all those teaser trailers wherein the two of them are roommates I think I would have been, like, taken aback by the immediacy of this connection? XD. (What were those about, by the way? They’re not in the movie. Deleted scenes? Scenes from the next movie? Pure fanservice?)
Black Widow vs. Hawkeye - the “normal” people - again mainly due to actor chemistry, or in this case Jeremy Renner’s chemistry with powerful grounded women lol. (Thinking back to his Hurt Locker Oscar acceptance moment with Katheryn Bigelow.) He is interesting to look at even when he’s just standing around - actually when he has lines, his enunciation’s not the best. Still mad that Anthony Mackie from Hurt Locker - the black sniper guy - hasn’t gotten as much high-profile work, though. (Although this seems to be changing - did you know he is in Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter?)
Capt. America vs. Thor: just the one scene where Thor hits the capt’s shield and is repelled, honestly. Because I’m a logic puzzle nerd like that. :p Speaking of logic, though, Thor breaking out of the little room he was in - by throwing himself sideways as the room was plummeting toward the ground - actually shouldn’t have changed his impact with the ground. Because adding sideways momentum doesn’t take away the downward momentum. (I will stop now.)
Love:
Re: Tony Stark’s/Robert Downey Jr’s well-known “volatility and self-obsession” (this is a direct quote from the movie) - no comment - but I loved his antagonizing/bonding conversation with Bruce Banner/Hulk and that they drive off together at the end. BFFs 4ever?
Thor and Loki: Considering Thor is a King on his home planet, I wonder where he picked up his “the leader is the servant of the people” attitude. It’s almost like he is a president, or some other public figure who relies on public recognition to legitimize his standing (like an actor), or something. :p Anyway, this movie made me kind of want to see Thor, but I don’t think I could watch another superhero prequel movie without any surprises (e.g. the Captain America movie). People who have seen Thor, is it like that?
Black Widow and Loki: though her intelligence doesn’t stop Loki’s plan from working, but that’s not her fault. Actually what I REALLY liked was Black Widow in this movie, in general. She never actually uses sex appeal to seduce anyone: instead what she uses is her air of approachable friendliness and some men’s automatic assumption that she must be emotional and weak. Great feminist (and realist!) statement there. And that moment when the camera zooms in on her high heels, carried in one hand as she walks away from the fight she just won! Awesome.
Dislike:
Loki vs. Nick Fury: actually this was one scene that could have been handled FAR better, and used to send a message like the Black Widow/Loki scene. Because Loki is supposed to be this hurtful (because he has been hurt), manipulative person, right? It would have hurt more, and been more on point, if instead of saying that Nick Fury had never seen power until he saw Loki, he'd instead pointed out that Nick Fury is forever the servant of others who are in power, whereas he, Loki, is simply realizing his ambitions to lead. Because it is quite striking that the one black guy in the cast, unlike all the others, basically has his hands tied. (His bazooka moment notwithstanding.) It’s not like the scriptwriters even had to make an explicit statement here, but some acknowledgment of Nick Fury’s likely ambition and capability and the fact that he is constrained more than others, despite his higher official position, would have been nice. Such a wasted moment.
General comments:
Many other things could be said about the politics of this movie, but sticking to just interpersonal politics for now. Anyway, great handling of large cast, great pacing, fun movie. Much smarter than it needed to be! One of those things that is better if you know the actors outside their roles in the film. But it also stands on its own pretty well, I think.
Fight scenes were handled really well as long as you pretend that everyone has rubber skin. There was a lot of collateral damage but I think the movie avoided giving the impression that it’s okay for people to die on screen when they don’t have speaking lines - f’r instance the bus evacuation scene, the guy who was ejected from his plane but (of course) had a parachute, Black Widow’s gravity when she says “he killed 80 people in two days.” Of course, this being a superhero movie, you are still left with the impression that it’s good/right for some people to be more powerful than others and for normal rules to not apply to them; within those bounds, though, this movie is not too bad. (Oops I ended up discussing politics anyway.)
Please, please, though: no more 3D.
This movie is totally about conceptual team-ups and rivalries - Tony Stark’s out of control ego vs. Bruce Banner’s out of control anger! Thor’s unbeatable sword vs. Capt America’s unbreakable shield! Spy (Black Widow) vs. Spy (Hawkeye)! Etc. etc. Even apart from how much I love conceptual team-ups and rivalries, this is a really efficient way to quickly characterize a large cast. I APPROVE.
Under the cut, some (conceptual) spoilers and criticisms:
Like:
Iron Man vs. Capt America, but mainly due to actor chemistry? Although this becomes a thematic thing eventually, the way they immediately single each other out is kind of random, actually. I saw this movie with a friend and she called it an alpha male thing - makes sense as they are the two guys who give the orders on the ground. OTOH, without all those teaser trailers wherein the two of them are roommates I think I would have been, like, taken aback by the immediacy of this connection? XD. (What were those about, by the way? They’re not in the movie. Deleted scenes? Scenes from the next movie? Pure fanservice?)
Black Widow vs. Hawkeye - the “normal” people - again mainly due to actor chemistry, or in this case Jeremy Renner’s chemistry with powerful grounded women lol. (Thinking back to his Hurt Locker Oscar acceptance moment with Katheryn Bigelow.) He is interesting to look at even when he’s just standing around - actually when he has lines, his enunciation’s not the best. Still mad that Anthony Mackie from Hurt Locker - the black sniper guy - hasn’t gotten as much high-profile work, though. (Although this seems to be changing - did you know he is in Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter?)
Capt. America vs. Thor: just the one scene where Thor hits the capt’s shield and is repelled, honestly. Because I’m a logic puzzle nerd like that. :p Speaking of logic, though, Thor breaking out of the little room he was in - by throwing himself sideways as the room was plummeting toward the ground - actually shouldn’t have changed his impact with the ground. Because adding sideways momentum doesn’t take away the downward momentum. (I will stop now.)
Love:
Re: Tony Stark’s/Robert Downey Jr’s well-known “volatility and self-obsession” (this is a direct quote from the movie) - no comment - but I loved his antagonizing/bonding conversation with Bruce Banner/Hulk and that they drive off together at the end. BFFs 4ever?
Thor and Loki: Considering Thor is a King on his home planet, I wonder where he picked up his “the leader is the servant of the people” attitude. It’s almost like he is a president, or some other public figure who relies on public recognition to legitimize his standing (like an actor), or something. :p Anyway, this movie made me kind of want to see Thor, but I don’t think I could watch another superhero prequel movie without any surprises (e.g. the Captain America movie). People who have seen Thor, is it like that?
Black Widow and Loki: though her intelligence doesn’t stop Loki’s plan from working, but that’s not her fault. Actually what I REALLY liked was Black Widow in this movie, in general. She never actually uses sex appeal to seduce anyone: instead what she uses is her air of approachable friendliness and some men’s automatic assumption that she must be emotional and weak. Great feminist (and realist!) statement there. And that moment when the camera zooms in on her high heels, carried in one hand as she walks away from the fight she just won! Awesome.
Dislike:
Loki vs. Nick Fury: actually this was one scene that could have been handled FAR better, and used to send a message like the Black Widow/Loki scene. Because Loki is supposed to be this hurtful (because he has been hurt), manipulative person, right? It would have hurt more, and been more on point, if instead of saying that Nick Fury had never seen power until he saw Loki, he'd instead pointed out that Nick Fury is forever the servant of others who are in power, whereas he, Loki, is simply realizing his ambitions to lead. Because it is quite striking that the one black guy in the cast, unlike all the others, basically has his hands tied. (His bazooka moment notwithstanding.) It’s not like the scriptwriters even had to make an explicit statement here, but some acknowledgment of Nick Fury’s likely ambition and capability and the fact that he is constrained more than others, despite his higher official position, would have been nice. Such a wasted moment.
General comments:
Many other things could be said about the politics of this movie, but sticking to just interpersonal politics for now. Anyway, great handling of large cast, great pacing, fun movie. Much smarter than it needed to be! One of those things that is better if you know the actors outside their roles in the film. But it also stands on its own pretty well, I think.
Fight scenes were handled really well as long as you pretend that everyone has rubber skin. There was a lot of collateral damage but I think the movie avoided giving the impression that it’s okay for people to die on screen when they don’t have speaking lines - f’r instance the bus evacuation scene, the guy who was ejected from his plane but (of course) had a parachute, Black Widow’s gravity when she says “he killed 80 people in two days.” Of course, this being a superhero movie, you are still left with the impression that it’s good/right for some people to be more powerful than others and for normal rules to not apply to them; within those bounds, though, this movie is not too bad. (Oops I ended up discussing politics anyway.)
Please, please, though: no more 3D.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-01 10:41 pm (UTC)He picked it up in Thor, that's the whole premise of the movie! :D Well, not specifically that, but in Thor he's not actually king yet, and his character arc is about getting some of his arrogance (about his king-to-be position and in general) knocked out of him and getting some humility knocked in. I don't know if you'd find it interesting enough to watch without falling asleep, though; I liked it a lot, but I can't think of much that I found surprising about it story-wise.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-01 11:22 pm (UTC)The other thing that made me want to see Thor is that Tom Hiddleson (Thor actor) interview where he talks about how their movie is all about Loki's pain, even though it's titled after his character. ^^ Really great actor chemistry in these movies, it seems like everyone understood the character motivations really well.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-02 12:59 am (UTC)Heh, Hiddleston's Loki is probably a significant reason Thor turned out as well as it did (and got such a big fannish response from people who'd previously had zero interest in the comics). All of the actors in this franchise seem to be enthusiastic about their roles, but Hiddleston in particular has done tons of interviews in which he's talked very earnestly and articulately about Loki and his characterization and his issues and how they all tie into the plots of the films. It's weirdly charming.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-02 04:29 pm (UTC)Either they wanted to balance it out, or they needed to make the human cast not totally superfluous to the Norse-god family squabble XD. I thought this movie did a good job of answering the question, "how do we make a villain powerful enough to challenge all of these heros, and the world's best surveillance network, at once?" (The Ans: aliens, gods, and have the heroes waste time fighting against each other. Actually this was another thing I liked about the movie, it wasn't stupid for them to fight each other, it was actually prudent - the stupid thing would have been to have been too credible about S.H.I.E.L.D.)
(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-06 07:10 pm (UTC)Gotta fix my name-and-face recognition problem XD.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-02 04:09 am (UTC)The Captain America/Iron man connection: You could argue that there's an additional connection there via Tony's dad, someone they both knew and valued in vastly different contexts, but I don't think the movie underscored this apart from Tony's one comment.
The Thor movie explains a lot about both Thor and Loki and how they got to where they are in Avengers. It's not all that surprising a movie but it's enjoyable and the rare superhero action movie with more than 1 noticable female character that actually passes the Bechdel test. Most people are into the movie for Loki and his character arc, specifically. XD
edited
Date: 2012-05-08 03:34 am (UTC)I missed the Tony's dad thing! It makes sense in terms of self-sacrifice vs. self-aggrandizement or contained/repressed vs. flamboyant/irrepressible or old-school vs new-school, but like, they barely know each other so when Tony Stark picks a fight it comes off like third graders pulling each other's pigtails, you know?
(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-06 05:14 am (UTC)And Black Widow rocked! So practical and efficient and smart but still knowing exactly what she is/wants/needs.
I do feel like I'm missing out on the bonus material (ie, extra ~meaningfulness~) by watching it without having seen a single prequel or knowing anything about Marvel, but it held up pretty well for me, so, quite perfect really XD
(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-06 07:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-06 07:30 pm (UTC)Of course they played into Loki's hands, Loki is the trickster/manipulator - bringing 'em down from within is his style. I mean once I realized that the movie wasn't going to be about fighting the interstellar horde (until the last ten minutes) then I realized the conflict has to come from SOMEWHERE else -- so, Loki screwing around with everyone. I didn't know that he'd do it like THAT (since I didn't know character dynamics, I couldn't predict it), but it's fairly standard plot structure, which is not a criticism. Hero gets up a tree, hero tries to get down but only gets himself further up the tree, then hero falls out of the tree. XD
(... well I wasn't expecting BW to seduce anyone, though in retrospect I should have XD)
I should say I WAS surprise that the tesseract was on Stark's building, but I SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SURPRISED. Rules of procedurals would have predicted the answer, but I wasn't thinking hard enough! My genre-savvy-fu was not strong enough.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-06 06:27 am (UTC)What I appreciated a lot about the conceptual matchups -- other than the fact that this was the framework the entire movie was built around -- is that zero time is spent on explaining to the viewer what they just saw and what it meant. XD Regardless of whether it's a comics!physics effect (eg. Thor's hammer vs Cap's shield = shockwave), a future plot point (Thor or Loki vs Iron Man = the arc reactor is blindingly obviously at this point made out of the same stuff as Asgardian energy), a character moment (Steve Rogers vs Tony Stark = Tony is for reals pigtail pulling, or rather stress testing, because Captain America is technology passed down from his dad and therefore requires it; Steve only had to see Tony in real action once to get past the attitude, but it's a hurdle up to that point and rightly so), or a more subtle character moment (Tony Stark vs Bruce Banner -- Iron Man is the only one the Hulk instinctively saves, which argues that Tony is the only one at this point Bruce really trusts deep down; most likely because Tony is the only one of the lot who demonstrates a genuine lack of wariness or aggression toward him. I don't think Tony planned it that way, although one gets the sense he spent a bit of time thinking about how much *he* hates it when ppl are jumpy around him and try to coddle him. As well as how best to stress test Captain America's sense of humour or lack thereof.)
Anyway, my point was all this stuff was clearly there, but it is not spelled out. XD
(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-06 06:35 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-06 06:25 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-06 09:57 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-06 11:16 pm (UTC)minor edits
Date: 2012-05-06 06:31 pm (UTC)Tony Stark prodding Bruce Banner I saw as more of an attempt to bond - oh hey you also have an out of control side we should be friends - like instead of bonding like a normal person, RDJ/Tony Stark cuts straight to the chase, because he is impatient like that lol. And since Hulk and Bruce Banner are actually separate people who don't share memories (at least BB doesn't share Hulk's memories), I thought Hulk saved Iron Man because he was the only one who expressed an admiration and liking for - rather than fear and mistrust of - the Hulk side.
...Though come to think of it, you (and Tony Stark) must be right that they bleed over into each other at least a little bit, because Hulk isn't smart enough to figure out that Iron Man and Tony Stark are the same person lol. In the end it does seem that what BB is most afraid of is not his inability to control his own temper, but the collateral damage that will inevitably result once he does lose control. So maybe what BB liked was Tony Stark's actual faith in him not to do that, no matter how misplaced or irresponsible it might have been. Also, they bond over being unstable genius scientists together.
I like your point about Asgardian energy! And now I wonder what it was that Capt. America's shield was supposed to be made out of, again. That's another conceptual framework for Iron Man and Capt. America: offense vs. defense.
Re: minor edits
Date: 2012-05-06 10:59 pm (UTC)Also, it'd be pretty funny if the guy with the anger management issues was the only one who is not constantly coping with low-level rage directed at Tony Stark.
And yeah, Iron Man's eventual mirror sacrifice moment! Putting a picture of his girl up on his HUD and everything. This was actually so heavy-handed I don't know why I didn't pick up on it the first time around. Possibly because I was just caught up in the sheer hilarity of Tony Stark BLOWING UP A SPACESHIP BY PERSONALLY FLYING A NUKE THROUGH A WORMHOLE. Like, at the end he was clearly thinking, welp I am dead, but this is a pretty awesome death, and the view is lovely.
Captain America's shield is made out of "vibranium". I am not going to venture on what the specific comic book science is. XD;
Re: minor edits
Date: 2012-05-06 11:33 pm (UTC)Following up on what I said to Kara about kind of wanting to watch the Captain America movie (for real this time) only because of this review, I kinda want to see the Hulk movie only because of a line in this interview with Joss Whedon:
"(Reached for comment, [original Avengers screenwriter] Penn says he was a little disappointed by Whedon's decision to take over. "We could have collaborated more, but that was not his choice. He wanted to do it his way, and I respect that. I mean, it's not like on the Hulk, where I got replaced by the lead actor," he says, referring to Edward Norton's infamous decision to install himself as lead screenwriter on that film. "That was an unusual one. This was more normal.")"
I mean, lololol.
That was like his Independence Day moment! I can't remember, did he like blast Ozzy Osbourne or something? XD I think it's easy to miss things like this because there are so many things going on.
That reminds me of my only other complaint re: this movie, which is that "tesseract" is a really stupid name. It was a lot better when they just started calling it The Cube.
Re: minor edits
Date: 2012-05-07 02:41 am (UTC)I watched two hours worth of Iron Man extras, because I got the special edition DVD for $10. All the actors found very nice ways to say that they were mostly doing improv (I still can't figure out if the original script was really that bad, or if Jon Favreau just likes to shoot improv); there was literally only one clip in the making of where the dialogue/action was the same as what ended up in the movie. So part of the way these things just work now is that the directors and actors fine tune the script on-set, whereas it takes months and months to do the special effects and so all that has to be meticulously planned. It sort of explains why Black Widow is so much better in The Avengers, though.
I liked "tesseract"! It's one of my favourite words that I never get to use. XD And I think that thing Exists In Canon(tm) and is actually called that. But the three-dimensional representation of a tesseract is a cube, so...
edits again...
Date: 2012-05-08 03:46 am (UTC)It's kind of what you said before about RDJ having more leeway with a big budget script because it's not set in stone to begin with, right? Was that based on watching the extras?
Ok, maybe it had to be called that... but like you said, it's not a word you would ever actually use in conversation??? Even though I think it was probably a deliberate choice to wait the half an hour until RDJ comes on screen before loosening up the script and bringing in banter and stuff, I was still really happy when they stopped calling it that XD.
Have you seen this? Pentagon Quit The Avengers Because of Its ‘Unreality’. Because not having the USA be in charge of the scary international research/surveillance/military network with the FFX airship and nuclear bombs is not realistic, lol.
Re: edits again...
Date: 2012-05-08 06:45 am (UTC)That was based on interviews and industry blog gossip, but the extras bore that out to a degree I didn't expect - literally, you just see them film variants of stuff. With giant poster cue cards off to the side, just like RDJ described. XD;;
I don't so much think it's deliberate as they started with SHIELD, and the SHIELD characters are straight foils. I'll just write this in a proper post, though. XD
I gather the Pentagon just wants the chain of command to be properly portrayed? XD Like how Rhodey has a rank in the Air Force and all. I know Coulson said specifically that SHIELD wasn't DoD in Iron Man.
Re: edits again...
Date: 2012-05-08 07:03 pm (UTC)Re: edits again...
Date: 2012-05-08 07:18 pm (UTC)That really was a genius clip, though. It just so perfectly conveyed that state you're in when you sit down and are hit by A WAVE OF EXHAUSTION as your adrenalin ebbs and are 0.5 seconds away from faceplanting into your plate, but at the same time you are SO HUNGRY, and the food isn't even very good or anything.
Re: edits again...
Date: 2012-05-08 08:11 pm (UTC)Re: edits again...
Date: 2012-05-09 12:06 am (UTC)Re: edits again...
Date: 2012-05-09 07:00 pm (UTC)Sorry, I just keeping throwing these links at you XD.
Re: edits again...
Date: 2012-05-10 03:08 am (UTC)Re: edits again...
Date: 2012-05-13 04:39 pm (UTC)OTOH I have learned that the characters have a lot of history together in the comics so maybe this explains the focus on their connection (and offscreen too, in a "fiction bleeding into reality" kind of way).
(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-06 06:44 pm (UTC)Damn, I really gotta watch the prequels huh? Because all you say makes sense but I couldn't legit say I twigged any of it FOR SURE from watching the movie. Jordan had to whisper in my ear "oh yeah um Iron Man fished Captain America out of the ice and that's why blah blah blah" because I was all WHAT IS GOING ON HERE at that point. XDDDD I do like things that have a historical meta-narrative though! Gah, as if my viewing queue wasn't long enough.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-06 06:54 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-13 03:54 pm (UTC)I missed these, do you have any links where I might find them?
(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-13 04:15 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-05-15 03:56 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-07-26 04:17 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-07-26 04:21 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-07-26 10:22 pm (UTC)BTW, did we ever talk to each other on livejournal? How'd you find your way here?
(no subject)
Date: 2012-07-31 04:39 pm (UTC)